15 replies to this topic

[smoker]

Seriously. Democracy is what got us eight years of George Bush and it's now what's fucking up the health care debate. If the president and congress didn't have to worry about elections in a year and a half they could just give us universal health care coverage and ignore all this douchnozzles at these bullshit town hall meetings.

I sometimes feel like there should be some sort of qualification to vote - like a college degree or something. You see these people protesting and read interviews with them and you realize they have no idea about anything they are protesting about. They just know that some dude on Fox news told them they should be angry and so they are. The people are fucking sheep - and dangerous ones at that. And, most of the people protesting are the ones who would benefit most from free health care.

Certainly anyone holding a sign saying "Keep the government out of my medicare" is not someone bright enough to be allowed into a voting booth.

As it is all democracy has given us is the right for the insane uneducated masses to choose from one of two different members of the elite class every four years. Why don't we cut out the middleman and just let the elite classes pick from their own and let the rest of the country go back to watching American Idol?

[lvdkeyes]

smoker, on 22 September 2009 - 09:45 AM, said:

Why don't we cut out the middleman and just let the elite classes pick from their own and let the rest of the country go back to watching American Idol?

Isn't that what happened in 2000 when the Supreme Court essentially named Bush president?

[Bob]

Smoker, you can't blame all bad things on democracy. But, if that's your logic, then I suppose you'd have to admit that every good thing that's occurred or been accomplished in the west is due to democracy?

Aristocracy (other than in some third world countries - Thailand being likely in that class) was thrown out in the developed nations several hundred years ago. Democracy certainly is ugly at times but it's better than any alternative I can conjure up. Sure, we have a fair number of dumbass (just plain dumb-as-a-stump) citizens but, frankly, most of them actually don't vote. We also have a fair number of dumbass rich voters.

[Michael]

I like Socialism and Communism in theory. Until humans get involved. Democracy really is the best that I can see right now. What would you suggest would be better?

Saying that, now, if I ruled the world, I would promise to make it fair and just and share the wealth with all. A one ruler world may work. If the right ruler is chosen.

[WannaGo]

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Sure, we have a fair number of dumbass (just plain dumb-as-a-stump) citizens but, frankly, most of them actually don't vote. We also have a fair number of dumbass rich voters.

You guys remember that cover of the Daily Mirror in the UK when Bush got re-elected? "How can 59,054,087 people be so DUMB?" I loved it!

Personally, I'm starting to have my doubts about unrestricted capitalism and the free market. I think what all those hard-core proponents of capitalism fail to take into account is capitalism only works under the assumption that people will be fair and good...and we all know what BS that is.

Looking forward to Michael Moore's new movie, Capitalism: A Love Story.

[lvdkeyes]

For anyone who hasn't read ATLAS SHRUGGED, I highly recommend it. It might change some minds about democracy, capitalism and definitely socialism and communism. I read somewhere that they are going to make a movie of it. If they do, I hope they do a better job of it than with Ayn Rand's last book that they made into a movie, The Fountainhead.

[smoker]

I loved Atlas Shrugged. Dagby Tagbert is a wonderful character and Ayn Rand had some wonderful ideas.

Unfortunately, her ideas did not anticipate the type of weird derivative trading and credit that would develop in the late part of the 20th century.

Her ideas work perfectly for the industrial era she was in where creating better steel or a better railroad or a better something was easily measurable and could and should be rewarded. Her idea of the best and the brightest working the hardest and getting the most rewards is wonderful.

The problem now is that our best and brightest were working on turning banks into casinos instead of actually creating valuable physical products and once that gets into the mix it breaks the formula she so excellently created.

Yes, I do have to give democracy credit for the good it has done for the world. But I also have to remember that Hitler was elected as was the current corrupt douchtaggers running Afghanistan. Sure, it's better than, say, the way North Korea is run, but it also creates insane choices.

In America I think part of the problem is that people are more dedicated to their churches than to their own self interest so they vote for what they think God wants, rather than what would be best for the country.

I'd much prefer a system where educated atheists voted and the God folks stayed in church praying to zombies where they belong.

[lvdkeyes]

Ayn Rand's concept of everyone doing the best they can for themselves and not for any altruistic reason is what makes so much sense. It doesn't matter if it is making the best steel or the best spaghetti. It is what she calls the art of selfishness. Do the best for yourself and if everyone did the same and those that didn't just perished. Granted there are some in society who truly cannot do for themselves because of physical or mental disabilities. That number would be insignificant and could easily be taken care of.

[smoker]

Again the idea of people doing the best for themselves worked really well in the time she was in.

But, investment bankers who are rewarded more for short term profits than for long term value (which is true now but wasn't true then) breaks her theory - because by definition doing the best for themselves puts others at risk.

Now if everyone is trying to do the best for themselves but most of them become bankrupt because a small number of them are engaging in behaviors that are the best for themselves but the worst for others, then things fall apart.

Her ideas are, however, great ways to build a better railroad and should be studied by Amtrax executives.

[lvdkeyes]

Of course, illegal and/or unethical means to do what is best for yourself is not what she advocated either.

[WannaGo]

Just my two cents, but I think it is human nature to be corrupt and to take from others in order to benefit yourself. Not saying this applies to everyone, obviously, but there is a significant portion of the population who have criminal natures and, as we've seen, those take over when no one is watching.

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In America I think part of the problem is that people are more dedicated to their churches than to their own self interest so they vote for what they think God wants, rather than what would be best for the country.

Have you seen Bill Maher's documentary, Religulous? Saw it this weekend...outstanding take on how the irrationality of religion has gotten us all into a fine, fine mess. Highly recommend it.

[Beer Chang]

Democracy gave Thailand Thaksin.

Then the coup.

And back to democracy.

Till the next coup.

[WannaGo]

Thaksin was the one accused of corruption, right?

[lvdkeyes]

Accused and convicted. He has fled the country to avoid jail time.

[Thaifan]

lvdkeyes, on 22 September 2009 - 11:54 AM, said:

Isn't that what happened in 2000 when the Supreme Court essentially named Bush president?

Exactly and isn't that also what the PAD want to be the system in Thailand!! Who is going to protect us from idiots!!

[smoker]

I will use my supreme powers of judgment (fueled by alcohol and cigarettes) to protect us from idiots using my divine will.

Isn't that obvious?